[questions/qa-upright-counters-in-vertical] The example looks unnatural

[kidayasuo]

[source] (https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-upright-counters-in-vertical.html) [en]

The list marker example in the first section of the document feels peculiar because the number is not centered. Additionally, it seems odd that the delimiter, a period, is placed beside the number rather than below it to separate the number from the list content. Wouldn’t it be better to use a more typical and natural case as an example?

[KobayashiToshi]

kidayasuoさんの指摘は，その通りだと思います．

縦組の箇条番号は，数字を使う場合，主に漢数字とアラビア数字が使用されるが，最近はアラビア数字が多いように感じられる．

数字と句読点，括弧の組合せでは，以下の4つが主なものである．
1　数字だけ（一般に漢数字でもアラビア数字でも，その後ろは全角アキ）
2　括弧付き数字，丸中数字などを使う（一般に数字の後ろはベタだが，全角アキにする例もある）
3　（数字の左右ではなく）数字の前と後ろに括弧を付ける（括弧の後ろは二分アキの例もないわけではないが，全角アキが多い．特に注では）
4　数字の後ろに句読点を付ける

数字の後ろに付ける句読点は漢数字の場合は読点（、）を使う（句点の丸（。）の使用例はないでしょう）．アラビア数字の場合は，読点にする例とピリオドにする例がある．ピリオドは，数字の横ではなく，下に付ける例が多い（横に付けた例もたまに見かける）．最近はピリオドを使用する例をよく見かけるが，以前は，ほとんど，その使用例はなかった（ピリオドは，本来は縦組に使用するものではない）．

特に注を考えた場合，私が選択するとすれば，JLReqのFigure 249で示した形である．Figure 249
（前はアキなし）パーレン＋縦中横のアラビア数字＋パーレン＋その後ろは全角アキ＋注の本文，2行目以下は，2倍下ガリ．
この形式では，番号だけが上に出て区別がつき，番号を削除すると，注の1行目に対し，2行目は全角下ガリとなる（注の1行目も2行目以下も，行長を文字サイズの整数倍に設定できる）．

なお，箇条書きでは，2の方式，特に丸中数字の使用例もよく見かける．

[r12a]

@KobayashiToshi many thanks for this overview. I have made several alterations to the page in review. Principally:

1. Replaced the contentious examples using a digit followed by a dot with simple digits.
2. Added a section about how one could theoretically create the style with rotated parens but upright digits (theoretical because no browser yet supports the required CSS)

Hopefully that helps.

[r12a]

Here is a rough translation of Kobayashi Toshi's comment above.

---

I think kidayasuo's point is correct.

When numbers are used for vertically typeset clause numbers, Chinese numerals and Arabic numerals are mainly used, but it seems that Arabic numerals are used more often recently.

There are four main combinations of numbers, punctuation, and parentheses.

1. Only numbers (generally, whether Chinese numerals or Arabic numerals, there is a full-width space after them)

2. Use numbers in parentheses, numbers in circles, etc. (generally, there is a solid space after numbers, but there are also examples where a full-width space is used)

3. Put parentheses before and after numbers (not to the left or right of the numbers) (there are some examples where a half-space is left after parentheses, but a full-width space is often used, especially in notes)

4. Put punctuation after numbers

For Chinese numerals, a comma (、) is used as the punctuation after numbers (there are probably no examples of using a full-width circle (。)). For Arabic numerals, there are examples where a comma is used and examples where a period is used. In many cases, periods are placed below the numbers, not next to them (although I do occasionally see examples where they are placed next to them). While periods are often used these days, they were rarely used in the past (periods are not originally used in vertical writing).

If I were to choose a note, I would use the format shown in Figure 249 of JLReq. Figure 249
(No space before) Parentheses + Arabic numerals in horizontal-vertical text + Parentheses + full-width space after + body of note, 2x double bottom brackets for the second and subsequent lines.

In this format, only the numbers are placed above, making them distinct, and if you delete the numbers, the second line of the note will be full-width bottom brackets compared to the first line (you can set the line length of the first and second and subsequent lines of the note to an integer multiple of the character size).

Note that in bulleted lists, method 2 is also often used, especially numbers in circles.

[r12a]

I just added a section about layout at https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-upright-counters-in-vertical.html#layout, which reproduces the layout used for Figure 249 of JLReq.

[r12a]

Closing this now, but please reopen if there is more to be said.